Calendar Integration

ahp

I really like the calendar integration concept Legend has implemented. A few enhancements I’d like to put out there for your consideration and comment…

1. Ability to use the “/” menu to add a calendar event into my Outline

Example workflow… I’m about to join a scheduled meeting but am on a Legend Board view that isn’t showing a calendar pane. I’d like to be able to hit “/cal” and have it popup today’s next event.

2. Ability to “merge” or “link” a Outline section to an existing Calendar event.

Example. I use a CRM tool to log calls onto my calendar. So, if John Doe calls me and I talk to him for 10min, when the call ends, I hit “save call” on my CRM app and it adds the call to my calendar. Now, DURING the call, I took notes in Legend. I’d like to be able to merge/link these two data points.

3. Synchronized Calendar and Outlook pane locations

Example. I have a Board that shows 1 outline pane and 1 calendar pane. If I click on an event in the calendar, it would be awesome for the cursor to go to the respective position in the outline pane. So, if I know I’m looking for notes from a meeting that took place last Friday, I’ll often skim through my calendar to find the event.

4. Confirmation Prompt before editing calendar events (particularly ones with other meeting participants).

On a few occasions, I’ve accidently moved or edited a calendar event inside the Legend Calendar pane. If I am using this for work, accidently moving/editing an event could confuse a client/prospect or at least leave a bad impression (something I wouldn’t want to risk). I’d prefer to have an option that requires me to “approve” a calendar change in Legend before it is pushed to my Google Calendar for good – specifically for events that have attendees. (not a big deal if it’s just a personal task/recordkeeping calendar block).

Hopefully those were clear, but let me know if additional clarification is needed and I can try to add screenshots or video examples where necessary.

ahp

I have a few 15min meetings on my calendar and find that Legend only allows me to drag items that are that short. Another good reason to allow insertion of cal events using the / menu!

ahp 1. Ability to use the “/” menu to add a calendar event into my Outline
Example workflow… I’m about to join a scheduled meeting but am on a Legend Board view that isn’t showing a calendar pane. I’d like to be able to hit “/cal” and have it popup today’s next event.

tbg

To add to point 4:
I would love to have a private notes section for calendar events only for me that are NOT getting synced to the calendar. Right now the notes attached to the item are getting synced to the calendar as event description and are visible to everyone that can see that event on the synced calendar.

ahp

tbg yeah, the “notes” (shift+enter) portion of an event pulls from/syncs to the calendar event details. But, I can understand sync being the default behavior here.

The “private notes” you’re taking for that event could/should be new sub-bullets (or whtaever “item type” you prefer) indented under the calendar event bullet you pull into the Outline, right?

Still, the suggestion I made in point 4 should certainly apply to all sections of an event (notes/description, date/time, etc)

dfrigon

To add to point 4, I used an existing Calendar event to create a new item in Legend (A meeting) and I decided I didn’t need the item in any list in Legend so I deleted it and it deleted the Calendar event as well (Which makes sens).. I tried to undo and then just remove the date from the item but it still delete the Calendar event.

So I think that there should also be a way to detach an item in a Legend list but keep the Google calendar event.

ahp

dfrigon there should also be a way to detach an item in a Legend list but keep the Google calendar event

Agree with you 100%, as I evaluate Legend for work notes (I assume your interest is for a similar reason)

What I’ve been doing as a workaround is to use the Archive option (from the right-click menu) for entries where I realize I didn’t have any meaningful notes for a cal sync’d event. But, it still doesn’t eliminate the risk of an accidental edit messing things up on my calendar so I have to be careful/expend mental energy instead of just trusting the system. 🙁

Also, one thing I think I have successfully observed is that if I drag a calendar event that was created by someone else (i.e., I don’t have edit rights on the cal entry), then any edit I make in Legend only messes up my calendar. Meaning, it may get deleted from my Google Calendar, but it doesn’t send any edit/cancellation/etc to others on the original calendar invite.

Would love for you to test this yourself. If my statement is true, it at least restricts the domain of impact to cal entries that you own (again, not ideal, but just sharing so you can assess risk on the current cal sync offering).

dfrigon

ahp Would love for you to test this yourself. If my statement is true, it at least restricts the domain of impact to cal entries that you own (again, not ideal, but just sharing so you can assess risk on the current cal sync offering).

Yes that’s what I realized too! But it still isn’t great since I don’t have any trace of the event in my calendar if I ever need to search for that event later on..

I might look at the archive option! I never used this option yet!

ahp

As I optimistically look to make Legend safe to use for my personal AND work notes, I ran through some calendar use cases to figure out which of my behaviors/workflows are causing havoc on my Google Calendar Sync’d Events.

I think I’ve boiled it down to – don’t use the Backspace or Delete key anywhere around a sync’d cal event

@Jay is there any way you could add a safety check (at least as a toggle option) for those of us who need to manage the risk).

Basically, I’d want a confirmation prompt for edits that causes ANY change to be pushed up to the google calendar sycn’d event (i.e., if I change the event date, edit the title, delete the cal event, mod notes in the cal description, etc. I would like to see a confirmation prompt).
I do NOT need a confirmation prompt if the edit doesn’t impact the sync’d google calendar (i.e., if I move the location of a bullet from one document to another, I add sub-bullets under a cal event, etc. I don’t need a confirmation).

Jay

ahp Yes, that’s a good idea! It definitely should not delete the event when Deleting in that example, will fix that immediately.

But I’m not sure how to prompt for edits to text. It shouldn’t prompt for every character changed… I think it should prompt the first time making a change to an event, and allow changes for another minute or so before prompting again. Does that make sense to you?

ahp

Jay Yes, that’s a good idea! It definitely should not delete the event when Deleting in that example, will fix that immediately.

The issue appears to be Windows/PC specific. I went ahead and installed Legend on my MBP and the calendar entry doesn’t seem to be impacted the same way when using the Mac’s delete key. (I can run some screen recordings if this isn’t clear enough for you to reproduce).

Jay But I’m not sure how to prompt for edits to text. It shouldn’t prompt for every character changed… I think it should prompt the first time making a change to an event, and allow changes for another minute or so before prompting again. Does that make sense to you?

(thinking out loud)

What if there was a way to “lock” a bullet from being edited/moved without a confirmation? I’d probably prefer this over the “prompt/confirmation” option. I’d basically “lock” any bullet that I pull from the calendar, where the call event has attendees (customers, execs, etc).
What if any event I “created/pulled from the Google Calendar” is one-way (i.e., can only be edited in Google Calendar). But, any event that I create from Legend can be edited two-way. (probably too complicated but putting it out there)
If you settle on the original ‘confirmation prompt’ idea, how about ‘once per entry into a bullet, upon edit’?
- Flow Example: if I attempt to edit a cal sync’d bullet or note, I get a warning. If I agree to allow the edit, that should persist as long as the cursor stays on that bullet. If I move away from that bullet (to a sub-bullet, another part of the doc, etc) and then come back to the cal sycn’d bullet, I should get the warning again.
- Flow Example: if I open the notes (Shift+Enter) portion of a sync’d cal event and am just reviewing the text (i.e., reading only), I shouldn’t get a warning yet. But, if I attempt to edit the note (which would sync back to the calendar and impact everyone that is on that invite), give me a warning once. If I close the note and re-open, I would expect another warning.
- Flow Example: I accidentally mass delete a section that has one or more sycn’d cal events in it. I’d DEFINITELY want a warning before that change gets pushed. In work situations where I may have logged many historical cal sync events, a mass edit of events could be a career limiting event.

Jay

ahp The latest update makes some progress on this, preventing deleting events with the Delete key and confirming whether to delete from Google Calendar when deleting. And we’ll continue to add more safety in further updates.

ahp

Jay appreciate the attempt, but even after selecting “No” on the “do you want to remove Calendar Entry” modal, the calendar entry still ends up getting deleted. See here: https://www.loom.com/share/38b17a4a20084f14a82b1842c9bbee3d

Running 1646707377987 Mar 7, 9:42 PM Build

andrew

Jay The way I use Legend, I would delete from Google Calendar 100% of the time. Please make this an option or provide some other way to bypass the prompt, whether using a different hotkey and/or context menu item.

ahp

andrew Agree with the need for some options to handle various people’s use cases.

For my use case, the use of Calendar integration is primary to “pull/drag” calendar events into an Outline (because my mental model for work notes ties events to notes.

But, for my personal notes/knowledge repository side of using Legend, I really don’t care for notification/confirmation prompts (it’s not a big deal if I accidentally delete a sync’d gCal event that I’ve invited my wife to and need to re-add it).

@Jay One additinal way to think about the notification options may be to tie them to the Calendar settings? So, under Sync Plugins -> Calendar, where you show the Calendar Name / Sync / Is Default Save table, add a column for “Confirm Changes” on a per calendar level? So, in my “work” calendar I would enable the option. And, in @andrew ’s case, he would uncheck the option for all calendars.

andrew

ahp Actually I didn’t even realize that you could drag a calendar event to the outline… have never done that in almost 5 years of using Moo.do/Legend. I can see how that could be pretty useful and may start doing that myself. And I see why in that case it is more important to have control over how changes and deletions to the outline item affect the calendar event.

Perhaps when an item is created in the outline, it can be internally noted whether it was created from an existing calendar event or not, and then when deleting (or changing?) an item, if it was created from an existing calendar event, then there is a confirmation prompt, otherwise not.

You’re idea of making it a calendar-specific option would work for me also, since all my Legend items go into a separate calendar from my other calendars.

Jay

ahp I like this idea to add an option per calendar. I’ll try to aim for that. It seems like in the latest version it is not removing from Google Calendar when you select “No”, but it does disappear from panes until the next refresh. I’ll try to fix that in the next update.

Jay

ahp I have a change coming that adds a setting for an “Editable” setting with three options:
Yes: Edits sync automatically
Prompt: Prompt before editing outside of Calendar
No: Edits are not allowed outside of Calendar

Prompt keeps the item editable until selecting into a different item as you suggested. I like that.

By default it’s Yes, which would have the same behavior as before. But this will give you the ability to have some calendars that are safer with prompting, or some that are fully safe by just not being editable.

I think these changes should only affect non-Calendar panes? If you move or rename an event in a Calendar pane, that should just save rather than prompting, right?

Does that sound good? It’s after midnight here so I’ll test it more in the morning and release a new beta.

Jerud

I think much of what you want to do can be handled with existing tools (so long as you don’t run afoul of some of the bugs/issues). See below for my input on those.

The biggest problem you’re going to hit is with Google Calendar-synced events and features. Gcal sync is neat but in all my years of using Legend it’s never been robust enough for me to trust it. Too many things don’t survive the sync (like prefixes), Gcal features don’t get pulled in to Legend (like attendees), and something always seems to break (currently, changes to time/date in Legend don’t push up to Gcal). I no longer Gsync events but I don’t coordinate with others so that works fine for me.

Ability to use the “/” menu to add a calendar event into my Outline

A ‘calendar event’ is just an item with a !date assigned. So you can drop that new item into your outline in the Board you’re already viewing, or use the “new item” dialog box (hotkey is available) to create a new item and apply the !tag in there.

Ability to “merge” or “link” a Outline section to an existing Calendar event.

Do this with a [[link or ((mirror to connect existing Legend items to other items that have !dates (i.e. calendar events). I’m not sure how well this will hold up if you Gsync though.

Synchronized Calendar and Outlook pane locations

Try using “Highlight in all Panes” from the RMB (right mouse button) menu. Also available via hotkey.
This is not “idiot proof” – you have to make sure that at least one of the other Panes on your Board is pointed to the Document which contains your events and doesn’t have filters that would hide the item. So if your calendar holds items that come from multiple Documents, you’ll need one Outline Pane for each of them. The Board therefore needs to be structured with this type of use in mind to start with. If you have a pretty well-defined “system” and workflow already in place, this shouldn’t be an obstacle. But if you’re hunting for a misplaced or errant event, you’re better off using “Global Search.”

Confirmation Prompt before editing calendar events (particularly ones with other meeting participants).

I don’t think Legend is able to work with “participants” at all, this one is a miss.
Aside from that, I see editing an event as no different than editing any other item and would not want the extra step of a confirmation.

ahp

Jerud Gcal sync is neat but in all my years of using Legend it’s never been robust enough for me to trust it.

Yes, based on what I’ve seen of the Gcal integration in my few weeks of use, I agree that it isn’t mature enough to be used the way I was originally expecting/hoping for my professional/work use.

Where I stand right now, I’d really just prefer the ability to PULL (one-way sync) down Gcal into the Legend Calendar. over any of the more creative ideas I suggested in this thread. That way, if someone (mtg host) changes event details or I change the meeting date/time in Gcal, the modification would automatically get sync’d down into my Outline Pane. But, if I delete, add some “raw/unfiltered notes” in my outline that’s tied to a calendar event, there’s no risk of it rolling back up to the Gcal entry. Hoping that’s an easy enough implementation for Jay to push soon.🤞

P.S. Ironically, the part of the Gsuite integration I DO need two-way sync on is Contacts. But, that doesn’t seem to be in the cards so I’m using the #@Name approach you suggested in another thread (thanks for the idea!)

ahp

Jay Jay basically, deleting an event in the Outline pane still deletes the event from Google Calendar (bad), even if I select “No (N)” in the popup Model that asks:

I would expect that selecting “No” here would delete the Bullet in the Outline pane, but leave the original Google Calendar event untouched.

Jay

ahp I think this should be working correctly now in the latest update. If it’s not, can you tell me which method of deleting the item you’re using?

ahp

Jay I like the approach. I’m likely to start with the “No” path for safety, so could you validate what happens when I drag an event from the Calendar onto the Outline Pane and want to add personal notes (sub-bullets) under the cal bullet?

Jay I have a change coming that adds a setting for an “Editable” setting

Here are my interpretation/uncertainties of the Editable states, based on the current description provided (behavior we may want to clarify in documentation):

Yes = any change is immediately sync’d back.
- But, if there are attendees on the cal sync’d invite, they would NOT get an email with an update cal invite for each character I just added, right!? Is the default Legend behavior to update the cal entry, without sending an email? For comparison, if I’m editing in gCal directly, it gives me a prompt asking if I want to “send email” when I save the changes. If I’m doing it through Legend, I’m unclear what would happen.
Prompt = on first entry, I have to confirm I want to edit.
- If I select Yes, it follows the logic of “Yes”, for the duration of my cursor remaining on that bullet?
No = no edits can be made to the Outline pane instance of the calendar entry
- but, I can add sub-bullets under the entry, that would NOT get sync’d back to the calendar (what I’d prefer/hoping for).

Jay I think these changes should only affect non-Calendar panes? If you move or rename an event in a Calendar pane, that should just save rather than prompting, right?

I agree with this logic. If a user is directly editing in the Calendar view, I think it’s safe to assume the intent is to edit the entry; whereas an event in the Outline pane may include personal/private notes tied to that event.